I've been thinking about buying a rifle for hunting. I've been doing a little research on the subject, and I came across the acronym "MOA". I looked it up and figured out, basically, what it is. But, if you zero your rifle, does MOA really matter?
Roof_Top
MOA as it is commonly used in these circles, is about an inherent accuracy of a rifle. No rifle will shoot exactly the same hole round after round, variances in the rifle and externally will determine accuracy. MOA is a measure of that variance. So in practical matters a rifle that is a 1 MOA shooter will shoot to 1MOA at 100 yards, or about an inch grouping. 1.5 MOA - 1.5 inches and so on.
Essentially MOA as WE use it regards the capability of a rifle to repeat accuracy at distance. If a rifle is zero'd at 100 yards, the MOA of the rifle, will predict the size of grouping around the zero.
MOA is a much bigger concept than what I am saying, but what MOA means at a practical level is thus.
Essentially MOA as WE use it regards the capability of a rifle to repeat accuracy at distance. If a rifle is zero'd at 100 yards, the MOA of the rifle, will predict the size of grouping around the zero.
MOA is a much bigger concept than what I am saying, but what MOA means at a practical level is thus.
for hunting I'd say not really. just zero it and go hunting.
I zero my hunting rifle at 25 yards. But I make sure I can hit a circle about the size of a nickel consistently.
With that zero I think I am an inch high at 100 yards. dead on at 250.
when shooting longer ranges I just aim high to compensate for the extra distance.
I zero my hunting rifle at 25 yards. But I make sure I can hit a circle about the size of a nickel consistently.
With that zero I think I am an inch high at 100 yards. dead on at 250.
when shooting longer ranges I just aim high to compensate for the extra distance.
MOA is simply the group size at 100m like judo stated
it is more than just zeroing your rifle and it is also important to know for adjusting your scope
lets say you are zeroed at 100m you know each click on your scope is .25 inches
you now have a target at say 660m how many clicks in elevation will you need to adjust to have a first round hit?
4 clicks to the inch at 100m
x inches in drop past your 100m zero every 100m kinda thing
knowing how your rifle/ammo/you perform is good and is important
it is more than just zeroing your rifle and it is also important to know for adjusting your scope
lets say you are zeroed at 100m you know each click on your scope is .25 inches
you now have a target at say 660m how many clicks in elevation will you need to adjust to have a first round hit?
4 clicks to the inch at 100m
x inches in drop past your 100m zero every 100m kinda thing
knowing how your rifle/ammo/you perform is good and is important
:
I used a smoothbore shotgun with aftermarket sights to slug hunt deer for years. I used to shoot coffee cans to practice. When experts tell me a shotgun is only a 40yd weapon I need something besides dead deer to prove them wrong. 4 MOA is the measurement people require to ok internet gun theory.
To put it simply, MOA is the size of group that the gun/ammo combination is capable of shooting. An accurate gun shoots a small group and an inaccurate one shoots a large group. It has nothing to do with bullet drop or anything else. It's strictly a way to measure the accuracy potential of the gun and/or ammo.
RoofTop, buy a quality .22 rifle and learn how to become an accurate shooter. In my experience a 10/22 is NOT an accurate rifle so not suited for learning marksmanship. Find a CZ bolt action, preferably the trainer rifle and you will use it for the rest of your life.
Don't get too tangled up in MOA and other terminology. What matters is that you get trigger time with a professional instructor. I can't emphasize enough the importance of quality instruction when new to guns. And no, internet research does not qualify as training or education. Training means you with your accurate .22, a shooting mat and case of ammo at an appleseed event.
Don't get too tangled up in MOA and other terminology. What matters is that you get trigger time with a professional instructor. I can't emphasize enough the importance of quality instruction when new to guns. And no, internet research does not qualify as training or education. Training means you with your accurate .22, a shooting mat and case of ammo at an appleseed event.
You have already received some good stuff, but I'll add a little bit.
....answer.....yes, no, maybe!
Example, you have a 30-06 bolt action rifle, with a 6 power scope, shooting a customary type big game cartridge, you are hunting deer and the maximum distance is about 240 yards. Your rifle is zeroed at 200 yards. The answer would probably be, No. From the muzzle to 240 yards you bullet should strike within the kill zone of a whitetail deer. In this situation, MOA would probably be one of those terms least likely to help you harvest the deer.
Example, you have a 7mm Remington Magnum bolt action rifle, with a 6-12 power tactical/target type scope, shooting an accurate load with a dependable hunting bullet, you are hunting proghorn, sheep, goat and the maximum distance is 600 yards. Being familiar with MOA and knowing how to apply it during both load development, zeroing and hunting, may prove to be very helpful.
MOA (minute of angle) is a constant angular reference of dimensional value, which represent a specific oblique measurement at a given distance. There are hundreds of adequate explanation on the net as reference to MOA, such as mj52 has posted above.
How you hunt, where you hunt, what you hunt, will most likely better answer your question for you personally. However, it is my opinion, whether you use MOA during your hunts or not.......if you study it, learn it, fully understand it, and apply it to your preparations to hunt.....you will find benefit in the knowledge.
Many feel it is a method to measure accuracy. Not really, but we do use it often to reference accuracy. If someone tells us their rifle is an MOA shooter, that's usually means the rifle system is capable of (not withstanding shooter ability) to shoot a 5 shots group at 100 yards which measures at, or less than 1" from center-to-center of the farthest shot holes in the group. usually this means they have measured it with a tool like a caliper, tape, ruler, or even a yard stick, none of which have MOA increments on them. And, although shooting a MOA or less size group at 100 yards gives us a reference for shorter of further distances, it's not telling us what the rifle system is capable of at let's say 800 yards!
A 1 MOA shooter at 100 yards may be a 2 MOA shooter at 800 yards. Or, a 1.5 MOA shooter could be a 1 MOA shooter at 300 plus yards!!
MOA is a reference of dimensional value we can apply in various uses and be a very good benefit, or it can be relatively worthless information for some hunters. I have a good friend, a wrangler, who carries a Win 94 30-30, loads it with Silvertip factory loads, shoots coyotes and Javelinas out to 250 yards and couldn't care less about MOA doing so. I often shoot 308 out to 1,200 yards and MOA is important to me. I use it during development, calling bullet trace, and making trajectory adjustments. It's however not the only measurement reference that can be used.
Best Regards......Eagle Six
....answer.....yes, no, maybe!
Example, you have a 30-06 bolt action rifle, with a 6 power scope, shooting a customary type big game cartridge, you are hunting deer and the maximum distance is about 240 yards. Your rifle is zeroed at 200 yards. The answer would probably be, No. From the muzzle to 240 yards you bullet should strike within the kill zone of a whitetail deer. In this situation, MOA would probably be one of those terms least likely to help you harvest the deer.
Example, you have a 7mm Remington Magnum bolt action rifle, with a 6-12 power tactical/target type scope, shooting an accurate load with a dependable hunting bullet, you are hunting proghorn, sheep, goat and the maximum distance is 600 yards. Being familiar with MOA and knowing how to apply it during both load development, zeroing and hunting, may prove to be very helpful.
MOA (minute of angle) is a constant angular reference of dimensional value, which represent a specific oblique measurement at a given distance. There are hundreds of adequate explanation on the net as reference to MOA, such as mj52 has posted above.
How you hunt, where you hunt, what you hunt, will most likely better answer your question for you personally. However, it is my opinion, whether you use MOA during your hunts or not.......if you study it, learn it, fully understand it, and apply it to your preparations to hunt.....you will find benefit in the knowledge.
Many feel it is a method to measure accuracy. Not really, but we do use it often to reference accuracy. If someone tells us their rifle is an MOA shooter, that's usually means the rifle system is capable of (not withstanding shooter ability) to shoot a 5 shots group at 100 yards which measures at, or less than 1" from center-to-center of the farthest shot holes in the group. usually this means they have measured it with a tool like a caliper, tape, ruler, or even a yard stick, none of which have MOA increments on them. And, although shooting a MOA or less size group at 100 yards gives us a reference for shorter of further distances, it's not telling us what the rifle system is capable of at let's say 800 yards!
A 1 MOA shooter at 100 yards may be a 2 MOA shooter at 800 yards. Or, a 1.5 MOA shooter could be a 1 MOA shooter at 300 plus yards!!
MOA is a reference of dimensional value we can apply in various uses and be a very good benefit, or it can be relatively worthless information for some hunters. I have a good friend, a wrangler, who carries a Win 94 30-30, loads it with Silvertip factory loads, shoots coyotes and Javelinas out to 250 yards and couldn't care less about MOA doing so. I often shoot 308 out to 1,200 yards and MOA is important to me. I use it during development, calling bullet trace, and making trajectory adjustments. It's however not the only measurement reference that can be used.
Best Regards......Eagle Six
That's his signature, not directed towards you, and your post fits just fine where it is imho.:thumb:
Thanks Eagle-6.
You make a lot of sense. I do need to figure out what I'm going to hunt, how I plan on hunting...though this will be my first time...and the terrain that I will most likely hunt in. I could be like your friend and not need to worry about MOA. Or I could be more like you (though I've never shot at anything that far) and MOA will be important. Additionally, I think I need to read more...
Thanks again...
You make a lot of sense. I do need to figure out what I'm going to hunt, how I plan on hunting...though this will be my first time...and the terrain that I will most likely hunt in. I could be like your friend and not need to worry about MOA. Or I could be more like you (though I've never shot at anything that far) and MOA will be important. Additionally, I think I need to read more...
Thanks again...
This excerpt from Wiki on Minute of Arc:
Firearms [edit]
1 MOA at 100 yds = 1", 500 yds = 5" and 1,000 yds = 10"
and has absolutely nothing to do with bullet drop which you can readily find in most ammo sites or with a bullet drop program like Berger Bullets offers.
To determine group size measure the hole(s) at the farthest part, subtract the diameter of your bullet and you have the true group size.
You shoot a 100 yd group that measure ½" across with five (NOT three) .308 bullets your group would be registered in a BR shoot as: .500 - .308 = .192 and would probably not even make it into the top 100 spot.
While it is nearly impossible to place all five shots into the exact same hole there have been numerous groups shot of .2235 with .223 bullets for a group of .0005 but these can only be measured by extremely accurate measuring devices.
The problem with bullet drop has more to do with the quality of your scope and bases/rigs or iron sights for that matter then with your rifle...Depending on calibre you may have 350" to 500+" of bullet drop from a 100 yd zero at 1,000 yds and there are just not enough clicks in your scope's turret to compensate for that amount...Raising the bases helps, especially the rear one but that still won't cut it all the time...Ever see the tangent or ladder type rear sights on older military rifles and you'll get the idea...You'll just have to go out and get a better quality scope--one designed for long range target shooting.
![Image]()
SMLE Mk4 Nbr2 -- IIRC scribed to 2,200 yds.
![Image]()
Remington Rolling Block tangent mounted sight
![Image]()
The extreme rear bases from a two mile--yes, I said two mile, varmint rifle...Look at the angle of the rifle barrel
Firearms [edit]
As stated MOA is used to determine group size or more importantly group expansion over greater distances.
1 MOA at 100 yds = 1", 500 yds = 5" and 1,000 yds = 10"
and has absolutely nothing to do with bullet drop which you can readily find in most ammo sites or with a bullet drop program like Berger Bullets offers.
To determine group size measure the hole(s) at the farthest part, subtract the diameter of your bullet and you have the true group size.
You shoot a 100 yd group that measure ½" across with five (NOT three) .308 bullets your group would be registered in a BR shoot as: .500 - .308 = .192 and would probably not even make it into the top 100 spot.
While it is nearly impossible to place all five shots into the exact same hole there have been numerous groups shot of .2235 with .223 bullets for a group of .0005 but these can only be measured by extremely accurate measuring devices.
The problem with bullet drop has more to do with the quality of your scope and bases/rigs or iron sights for that matter then with your rifle...Depending on calibre you may have 350" to 500+" of bullet drop from a 100 yd zero at 1,000 yds and there are just not enough clicks in your scope's turret to compensate for that amount...Raising the bases helps, especially the rear one but that still won't cut it all the time...Ever see the tangent or ladder type rear sights on older military rifles and you'll get the idea...You'll just have to go out and get a better quality scope--one designed for long range target shooting.
SMLE Mk4 Nbr2 -- IIRC scribed to 2,200 yds.
Remington Rolling Block tangent mounted sight
The extreme rear bases from a two mile--yes, I said two mile, varmint rifle...Look at the angle of the rifle barrel
Verry important
Here is a good explanation:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg
Here is a good explanation:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg
I've done a four-AR 25-yard zero experiment at 25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, and 200 yards.
Last week I zeroed an AK at 25 yards, today I fired it at 100.
There is absolutely no equivocation whatever in my mind.
I zero at 25 to get on paper, and then zero at my preferred actual shooting distance once I know where the gun or glass is shooting.
On this custom-built AK, with a GOOD red dot optic & a GOOD trigger & GOOD ammunition, what was dead center last week at 25 was about six inches high & three inches left at 100 today.
On the ARs, depending on barrel length, twist rate, bullet weight, and sighting options, 25-yard-zero impacts were striking as much as 13 inches high at 200 yards, and there was a wide variation between guns.
Could'a hit a human target, if defense needed, but not a rabbit, using a dead-on point of aim.
I never trust a 25-yard zero to put a bullet where I want it at 100-200 yards. Too many years & too many guns have told me I can't.
Denis
Last week I zeroed an AK at 25 yards, today I fired it at 100.
There is absolutely no equivocation whatever in my mind.
I zero at 25 to get on paper, and then zero at my preferred actual shooting distance once I know where the gun or glass is shooting.
On this custom-built AK, with a GOOD red dot optic & a GOOD trigger & GOOD ammunition, what was dead center last week at 25 was about six inches high & three inches left at 100 today.
On the ARs, depending on barrel length, twist rate, bullet weight, and sighting options, 25-yard-zero impacts were striking as much as 13 inches high at 200 yards, and there was a wide variation between guns.
Could'a hit a human target, if defense needed, but not a rabbit, using a dead-on point of aim.
I never trust a 25-yard zero to put a bullet where I want it at 100-200 yards. Too many years & too many guns have told me I can't.
Denis
I zero dead on at 100 (or approx an inch high) to match the 100 setting on the rear sight when using irons on an AK.
THEN I can slide to match the distance as it extends.
On this one, I zeroed with the dot to get on paper at 25, and it was sufficiently far off to need final zero at 100.
Denis
THEN I can slide to match the distance as it extends.
On this one, I zeroed with the dot to get on paper at 25, and it was sufficiently far off to need final zero at 100.
Denis
In comment #9 I placed a link to an instructional video by Ryan Cleckner. Well here is a second video proving the man can walk his talk.
http://conservativevideos.com/2013/...3/06/former-army-rangers-amazing-off-hand-shot-with-50-cal-rifle-at-1000-yards/
http://conservativevideos.com/2013/...3/06/former-army-rangers-amazing-off-hand-shot-with-50-cal-rifle-at-1000-yards/
Already lots of good discussion above, so no need to add to what already exists but I can offer this...
MOA can change in a firearm based on the load fired. Some loads will be sub MOA and yet in the same rifle another load, bullet, etc., may print 3 MOA. Pays to dial in a load if handloading and if over-the-counted ammo is used, I would recommend firing groups of 10 (or a box) to see if your particular firearm prefers that type of ammo. Aside from velocity and grain weight of bullets, etc., one firearm may prefer one type of ammo and another just like it not perform well at all with the same. Too many factors to calculate, so the easiest way is simple test firing.
My pet load for my .270, for instance, is a load I worked up over an entire summer of firing 10-round batches with different parameters, bullet style and weight, powder manufacturer and grain weight, primer style, case style, set of the bullet in the case, etc. I finally narrowed the choices down to a single load that prints sub MOA (.33" from a rest if I do my part) and that also far exceeds the regular FPS of a typical .270 load without violating pressure signs in MY rifle. I would never allow anyone else to share that ammo, as it is custom loaded to my chamber, rifling, and bore. Rifle is also adjusted somewhat with glass bedding, trigger job, target muzzle, long barrel, etc. Typical factory ammo is MOA in my rifle, not bad, but my loads far exceed the capability of factory in all aspects.
MOA can change in a firearm based on the load fired. Some loads will be sub MOA and yet in the same rifle another load, bullet, etc., may print 3 MOA. Pays to dial in a load if handloading and if over-the-counted ammo is used, I would recommend firing groups of 10 (or a box) to see if your particular firearm prefers that type of ammo. Aside from velocity and grain weight of bullets, etc., one firearm may prefer one type of ammo and another just like it not perform well at all with the same. Too many factors to calculate, so the easiest way is simple test firing.
My pet load for my .270, for instance, is a load I worked up over an entire summer of firing 10-round batches with different parameters, bullet style and weight, powder manufacturer and grain weight, primer style, case style, set of the bullet in the case, etc. I finally narrowed the choices down to a single load that prints sub MOA (.33" from a rest if I do my part) and that also far exceeds the regular FPS of a typical .270 load without violating pressure signs in MY rifle. I would never allow anyone else to share that ammo, as it is custom loaded to my chamber, rifling, and bore. Rifle is also adjusted somewhat with glass bedding, trigger job, target muzzle, long barrel, etc. Typical factory ammo is MOA in my rifle, not bad, but my loads far exceed the capability of factory in all aspects.
The moa of your scope will be important for adjustment . Further you shoot smaller the increment must be on your turrets . 1/4 moa at 200 yard wont make much a difference for most shooter but at 800 yard it will make a difference in yards. If you intent to shoot long distance with precision 1/8 or 1/10 increment will be a. Big plus for precision.
MOA is not Minute of Group, it is Minute of Angle (and more precisely, Minute of Arc). The key is in part of the name "Angle". MOA, on it's own has nothing to do with group size. It doesn't determine the accuracy of a firearm.
Over the years, the term "MOA" as used by rifleman, has become almost as misused and misleading as the word "tactical".
MOA is one dimension used to achieve a measurement based on two required dimensions. Whether you are using MOA, SMOA (Shooter's Minute-of-Angle), or ASMOA (Average Shooter's Minute-of-Angle), in SAE or metrics, makes no difference. We cannot determine the measurement size of a group, by MOA, unless we know the 2nd of the two dimensions required......the 2nd dimension being distance.......distance from the apex to the mark.
Using MOA to describe rifle accuracy is something closer to measuring vehicle fuel consumption using miles and tank fulls, as opposed to using miles per gallon from more precise fuel and miles measurement.
MOA is more useful for making zero adjustments (zero compensation) from a know setting at one distance to a setting at a different distance, as well as compensation for wind, rotation of earth, etc., rather than group size!
No doubt we have overused and misrepresented rifle accuracy with MOA in the past and present, and no doubt will continue to do so in the future. It's an easy reference most shooters become comfortable with once they are satisfied to use it mistakenly and inaccurately. It's just close enough to accurate to make most easy with it's use.
There are however, many long distance shooters who know the value and how to accurately use MOA (SMOA) to fine tune their rifle to hit a mark far off in the distance, which has nothing to do with group size.
Best Regards.......Eagle Six
Over the years, the term "MOA" as used by rifleman, has become almost as misused and misleading as the word "tactical".
MOA is one dimension used to achieve a measurement based on two required dimensions. Whether you are using MOA, SMOA (Shooter's Minute-of-Angle), or ASMOA (Average Shooter's Minute-of-Angle), in SAE or metrics, makes no difference. We cannot determine the measurement size of a group, by MOA, unless we know the 2nd of the two dimensions required......the 2nd dimension being distance.......distance from the apex to the mark.
Using MOA to describe rifle accuracy is something closer to measuring vehicle fuel consumption using miles and tank fulls, as opposed to using miles per gallon from more precise fuel and miles measurement.
MOA is more useful for making zero adjustments (zero compensation) from a know setting at one distance to a setting at a different distance, as well as compensation for wind, rotation of earth, etc., rather than group size!
No doubt we have overused and misrepresented rifle accuracy with MOA in the past and present, and no doubt will continue to do so in the future. It's an easy reference most shooters become comfortable with once they are satisfied to use it mistakenly and inaccurately. It's just close enough to accurate to make most easy with it's use.
There are however, many long distance shooters who know the value and how to accurately use MOA (SMOA) to fine tune their rifle to hit a mark far off in the distance, which has nothing to do with group size.
Best Regards.......Eagle Six
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